Walter (Thomas) , of Heron Hall, Sir TYRREL 
Walter (Thomas) , of Heron Hall, Sir was born about 1348 in Heron Hall,East Horndon,Essex,England.1 Walter (Thomas) , of Heron Hall, Sir's father was Walter , of Heron Hall, Sir TYRREL and his mother was Anna SWYNFORD. His paternal grandparents were James , of Buttsbury, Sir Knight TYRREL and Margaret HERON. He had a half-sister named Tyrell. He died in 1406 in Heron Hall,East Horndon,Essex,England.1 General Notes
[jweber2.ged]
The pedigree I am following is found in a posting by John Stuart to soc.genealogy.medieval. It shows the "classic" descent of the Tyrell family of Heron Hall, Essex from Walter Tyrell, the alleged assassin of William II, which is found in a book "A Genealogical History of the Tyrrells" by Joseph Henry Tyrrell (JHT). There are many problems with the pedigree (in fact, according to John Stuart, JHT presents three variations in his book, but the one presented here is based on visitations.) John Stuart presents a critique with suggested alternatives based on a book "The Tyrells of England" by Dr. O. F. Brown (OFB). I am leaving my ancestry according to JHT, even though it has obvious problems, until the pedigree questions are resolved.
The following is excerpted from the posting:
Generation 11 (JHT)
"Sir Thomas of Heron, son of Walter and Anna
Married Elizabeth, daughter of John Flambert"
[OFB points out that there are numerous references to a Thomas 'the elder' and a Thomas 'the younger', his presumed son between 1332 and 1355. There is an additional isolated reference to a Thomas 'the elder' in 1360 and no further distinctions of this nature until the Thomas Tyrell who held Heron Hall died sometime between February 1381 and March 1382. Moriarty deduced the existence of three Tyrells named Thomas from this evidence, but OFB interprets the evidence differently and concludes there were only two -- Thomas 'the elder', probably born before 1290 and died about 1354/55, and Thomas 'the younger' (presumably son of 'the elder'), who was knighted in 1362, was the holder of Heron Hall and was born not later than about 1310.
OFB acknowledges that there is no direct evidence that Thomas 'the elder' is the son of James of 1305. Yet, OFB prefers this interpretation to the possibility that Thomas 'the elder' might be brother to James of 1305 despite possible chronological complications. There is a record of Thomas 'the elder' owning land in 1332, with the inference that a Thomas 'the younger' must have existed and been of an age to also own land at that point in time, requiring the distinction to be made. This would suggest that Thomas 'the younger' was born not later than about 1310/11 and that his presumed father, Thomas 'the elder' was born about 1290 or earlier. This, in turn, would suggest a birthdate of 1270 or earlier for Thomas 'the elder's' father. If that father was James, James would have been about 73 at his death in 1343. While this is certainly possible, OFB points out that it assumes minimum generations of 20 years each for the birth of both Thomas 'the elder' and Thomas 'the younger.' If either generation is significantly longer, the presumed lifespan of James could get uncomfortably long.
OFB states that assuming Thomas 'the elder' to be a brother of James, rather than his son, could worsen this problem by moving Thomas 'the elder's' probable birthdate back a generation to be contemporaneous with that of James while still having Thomas 'the elder' die in 1355, 12 years later than James. While I generally find OFB to be impressively researched and well reasoned, this particular argument strikes me as curious. Unless I have missed something in this information-rich book (a definite possibility) or unless OFB has additional information that he has uncharacteristically not spelled out, it would appear that OFB has overlooked the fact that if Thomas 'the elder' were brother of James instead of his son, this relationship would relieve the necessity of assuming that James was born in 1270 or earlier. Based solely on his 1305 land holdings, James could have been born in the early 1280s. If a brother Thomas 'the elder' were born wihin a few years of that time and then died in 1355, the resulting lifespan of said Thomas would still be possible. Furthermore, there is also the possibility that Thomas the 'elder' could have been a considerably younger brother of James if their father was the Hugh of Mannington who died in 1313.
Finally, I wonder if the distinction between Thomas 'the elder' and Thomas 'the younger' was initially made and subsequently repeated because, for a time, they were both residing on or near the Heron property and some convenient discriminator other than locale was needed. This would allow for the possibility of James and Thomas 'the elder' being brothers and Thomas 'the younger' being a son of James who was named for his uncle. Are any members of the list aware of a documented precedent for such use of the 'elder' and 'younger' notations? At the end of the day, it would appear that all that can be stated with some likelihood is that James of 1305, Thomas 'the elder' and Thomas 'the younger' were closely related.
As far as Elizabeth Flambert goes, the supposed spouse of Thomas according to JHT, OFB does identify an Eleanor Flambard, spouse of a Walter Tyrell who succeeded to Sir Thomas Tyrell's estates, and states that she had been "wrongly placed' as a second wife of Sir Thomas Tyrell in the 'traditional' pedigree.][jweberTYRR.ged]
The pedigree I am following is found in a posting by John Stuart to soc.genealogy.medieval. It shows the "classic" descent of the Tyrell family of Heron Hall, Essex from Walter Tyrell, the alleged assassin of William II, which is found in a book "A Genealogical History of the Tyrrells" by Joseph Henry Tyrrell (JHT). There are many problems with the pedigree (in fact, according to John Stuart, JHT presents three variations in his book, but the one presented here is based on visitations.) John Stuart presents a critique with suggested alternatives based on a book "The Tyrells of England" by Dr. O. F. Brown (OFB). I am leaving my ancestry according to JHT, even though it has obvious problems, until the pedigree questions are resolved.
The following is excerpted from the posting:
Generation 11 (JHT)
"Sir Thomas of Heron, son of Walter and Anna
Married Elizabeth, daughter of John Flambert"
-
Ancestor Pedigree Chart
-
*There are earlier generations for the ancestor(s) indicated. See their page(s) for details (click name)
- b.~ 1233 in Avon Tyrell,New Forest,Hampshire,England
- b.~ 1260 in Avon Tyrell,New Forest,Hampshire,England
- b.~ 1288 in Avon Tyrell,New Forest,Hampshire,England d.> 1377 in Carisbrooke Castle,Isle of Wight,Hampshire,England
- b.~ 1235 in Suffolk,England
- b.~ 1264 in Suffolk,England
- b.~ 1304 in Buttsbury,Chelmsford,Essex,England d.> 1380
- b.~ 1262 in Essex,England
- b.~ 1288 in Essex,England d.1330
- b.~ 1320 in Heron Hall,East Horndon,Essex,England
- b.~ 1233 in Heron Hall,East Horndon,Essex,England
- b.~ 1265 in Heron Hall,East Horndon,Essex,England
- b.~ 1290 in Heron Hall,East Horndon,Essex,England
- b.~ 1305 in Heron Hall,East Horndon,Essex,England
- b.~ 1348 in Heron Hall,East Horndon,Essex,England d.1406 in Heron Hall,East Horndon,Essex,England
- b.~ 1330 in Essex,England
-
Walter (Thomas) , of Heron Hall, Sir were married in a religious ceremony about 1379 in Of,Essex,England.2
Walter (Thomas) , of Heron Hall, Sir and Eleanor were married in a religious ceremony about 1379 in Of,Essex,England. They had five sons and a daughter, named John, Richard, Thomas, William, Edward and Miss.
Family Notes
Line in Record @F15955@ (MRIN 10262) from GEDCOM file not recognized:
_STAT MARRIED
-
Children
John Tyrell Sir
John was born in 1382 in Of,Heron,East Horndon,Essex, England and his baptism took place in Of,Buttsbury,Essex,England. He died at the age of 55 on April 2nd, 1437. He was buried in Church Of The Augustine Friars,London,England.
sir Richard Tyrell
Richard was born about 1384 in Of Heron,East Horndon,Essex,England. He was buried in 1431 in Sopwell Nunnery,Nr. St. Albans,Hertfordshire,England.
Edward Tyrell KNIGHT
Edward was born in 1400 in Of Downham,Essex,England. He died in ,Essex,England.
1 {jweberTYRR.ged}
2 {TERRELL.ged}
Further sources/citations:
Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval, at groups - google.com @ John Stuart, 2 July 1999, {jweber2.ged}, Ancestral File (TM), Ancestral File (TM)
2 {TERRELL.ged}
Further sources/citations:
Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval, at groups - google.com @ John Stuart, 2 July 1999, {jweber2.ged}, Ancestral File (TM), Ancestral File (TM)
Page last modified