General Notes

Philippa (Matilda or Maud) of Toulouse, b. ca. 1073, divorced 1115/6, d. 28 Nov 1117; m. (1) Sancho Ramiros, King of Aragon; m. (2) 1094, William VII of Poitou (IX of Aquitaine), Count of Poitou, Duke of Aquitaine, b. ca. 22 Oct 1071, d. 10 Feb 1126/7, crusader 1101.  [Ancestral Roots]

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The following post to SGM, 6 Mar 2003, by Thierry Stasser in response to my query, dispells the marriage of Philippa & Sancho Ramirez, as well as AR's "ca. 1073" birth date:

From: Thierry Stasser (thierry.stasser@@wanadoo.be)
Subject: Re: Phillipa de Toulouse, granddaughter of Maud de Montgomery & Robert de Mortain
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 2003-03-06 12:42:53 PST

William IV of Toulouse married Emma, dau of Robert of Mortain, before June 16, 1080 (Histoire GÈnÈrale de Languedoc, vol V, col 649- 652: ego Guillelmus Tolosanensium...comes et dux...me simul cum uxore mea nomine Emma...facta carta hujus donationis anno millesimo LXXX incarnationis Christi regnante Philippo rege...; and col 652-654: ego guillelmus dei gratia Tolosanorum ..;comes et dux et ego Emma uxor eius... facta carta donationis hujus anno Incarnatione Domini M LXXX regnante Philippo rege Francorum feria II , XVI kalendas julii...). William IV had been previously married to a lady Mantilis, mentioned in 1067 (Ibidem, vol V, col 544: ipse et Mantilis comitissa eius uxor). William IV of Toulouse's second marriage is then dated 1068/1080, but most probably about 1079, as Emma was not born before 1064/1065.

Contrary to previous assumptions, Philippa had not been married to the king of Aragon Sancho Ramirez (S de VAJAY, Ramire II le Moine, roi d'Aragon et Agnes de poitou dans l'histoire et la lÈgende, in MÈlanges offerts ‡ RenÈ crozet, 2 vol, Poitiers, 1966, vol 2, p 727-750; R E Harvey, The wives of the first troubadour Duke William IX of Aquitaine, in Journal of Medieval History, vol 19, 1993, p 315). Philippa married William IX of Aquitaine in 1094 (La chronique de Saint Maixent, ed. J Verdon, Paris, 1979, p 170).  Sancho Ramirez of Aragon had been married 1st to Elisabeth of Urgell, and then by 1076 to Felicia of Roucy (J de Salarrullana de Dios, Documentos correspondientes al reinado de Sancho ramirez, Saragossa, 1907, vol 1, nr 12, p 25-26: ego Sancius gratia Dei rex et laudo hoc quod donavit regina domna Felicia mea    uxor...facta carta in era MCXIIII...; this document is dated of Hispanic era). Queen Felicia was still alive in january 1094 (ibidem, vol I, nr 51, p 204-207: dono ego Sancius gratia Dei Aragonensium rex ...and ego felicia regina...facta carta era MCXXXII...) and died on May 3, 1123 (Necrologio del monasterio de San Victorian, in Espana sagrada, ed. H Florez, vol 46, p 278: V non. maii obiit Felicia regina anno MCXXIII). King sancho ramirez died on June 6 1094. So he cannot have married Philippa of Toulouse

I hope this helps

Thierry

dans l'article ab9770e6.0303050852.29109783@@posting.google.com, Jim Weber ‡
jimweber@@nwintl.com a Ècrit le 5/03/03 17:52 :

> I ran into a problem with a date given by AR for the approximate birth year of
> Philippa de Toulouse, as it relates with the marriage dates given for her
> parents and grandparents by CP.  I find that all of the dates involved are
> questionable and could use the newsgroup's expertise in determining the better
> dates.
>
> According to Weis' Ancestral Roots (AR), line 185-3, Phillipa (Maud or
> Matilda), daughter of William IV de Toulouse and Emma de Mortain, m. (1)
> Sancho Ramirez King of Aragon; (2) in 1094, William VII of Poitou &
> Aquitaine.  The birth year "ca. 1073" given by AR for Philippa does not fit
> with the marriage date given by CP for Emma's parents Robert de Mortain & Maud
> de Montgomery.  CP III:428 (Cornwall) states that Robert & Maud m. "bef
> 1066".  Nor does the 1073 date fit with marriage date given by CP for the
> parents of Maud de Montgomery: CP XI:686 (Shrewsbury) states that Roger II de
> Montgomery and Mabel, daughter of William Talvas d'Alencon, were
> married "between 1050 and 1054".  For the latter marriage date, CP refers to
> White, "The First House of Belleme" in Trans. R. Hist. Soc., 4th Ser., vol
> xxii, pp. 67-99.
>
> The above dates lead to:
>
> 1. Roger II de Montgomery m. bet. 1050-1054, Mabel de Talvas d'Alencon.
>
> 2. Maud de Montgomery, b. 1050/4, m. bef. 1066, Robert de Mortain.
>
> 3. Emma de Mortain, b. c. 1066, m. William IV of Toulouse.
>
> 4. Philippa (Maud or Matilda) de Toulouse, b. c. 1073 (Ouch!)
>
> In the article on Hugh de Montgomery, son of Roger II & Mabel, CP XI:688
> note "b" states that "According to a Welsh annalist, he [Hugh] was fighting in
> Wales in 1072 (Annales Cambriae, Rolls Ser., p. 26); but this seems impossibly
> early."  I think that this implies that the birth of Hugh may have been
> earlier than CP XI:688's "between 1053 and 1059", and that the marriage date
> of Hugh's parents may have been earlier as well.
>
> As I stated above I think that both the birth date and the two marriage dates
> are off.  But I would appreciate any other sources that the newsgroup could
> use to determine what the appropriate dates might be.
>
> Jim Weber

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The following e-mail from Peter Stewart, based on the above post to SGM, adds more info:

Jim,

In the article I mentioned Ruth Harvey discusses the evidence for when Philippa died, but not for the date of her birth.

Here are some bits of information from other sources that may be useful:

The alleged marriage of Philippa to Sancho Ramirez of Aragon is false - there's no room for it chronologically, since he was married in 1076 to Felicia de Roucy, who survived him & was not divorced. I suspect this misunderstanding came about from the relationships of Sancho's granddaughter Petronilla, queen of Aragon, whose father was Sancho's son Ramiro II, while her mother Agnes of Poitou was most likely Philippa's daughter.

Philippa was definitely the daughter of her father's second wife, Emma de Mortain - there is a charter of hers in _Histoire gÈnÈral de Languedoc_, vol V p 845: "Ego Philippa, Emae filia", leaving no doubt on this point.

Emma had been married to Guilhem IV, count of Toulouse before 16 June 1080 when she appeared in two of his charters: "uxore mea nomine Emma", _HGL_ vol V p 649, and another of the same date on p 652.

Philippa's marriage to Guilhem is firmly dated to 1094, according to the chronicle of Saint-Maixent: "Anno MXCIIII...Guillelmus duxit uxorem Philippam nomine, filiam Willelmi comitis Tholosani". She may have been already of child-bearing age. Her eldest son was not born until 1099, but it's recorded that she had daughters too and we don't know if one or more of them might have been born before him.

Regards

Peter