General Notes

OCCU Ct of Vermandoisubject: Re: Burgundy, Gerberga, Manassas, etc.From:  Matman <mat_man@hotmail.com>Date:  Fri, 23 May 1997 18:20:11 +0900Todd A. Farmerie wrote:> > addressed by Szabolcs de Vajay,
in _Annales de Bourgogne_(hereafter AB)> 34:154-69.  As is typical of the author, when faced with twoconflicting> versions of a relationship (in this case regarding theancestry of> Gerberga, Queen
of Italy) he develops an entirely differentone.  In> this case, he concludes that Gerberga was granddaughter ofLetaud,> daughter of his son Othon. The trouble with this, (and I realise you're not
propoundingthis personally) is that in this theory, Otto-William marries thewife of his great uncle:Letaud/Leotold etc  |__________________________________|       |   Othon       ||       |Gerberga
      ||       |Otto-William 2.m Ermentrude m.1 Alberic II of MaconVajay invented this Othon/Otto to explain why Otto II of Macon(Otto-William's grandson) calls Letaud his _atavus_ as I mentioned ina
previous post. But as the sources have Otto-William as the sonof Gerberga, there is no real need for this Othon anyway. > Here he again differs from ES, showing Geoffrey marryingfirst, the> aunt,
Aelis of Vermandois, daughter of Heribert II, and by herhavingThis would mean that Heribert II (d.943) had two daughterscalledAdelaide Adela/Aelis etc. We know one married Arnulf the Old ofFlanders
in the 930's, so any daughter of Heribert II who wasyoung enough to givebirth to Fulk the Black and co in c.970, could not have comefromthe same wife: one would have to invent another wife
orconcubine.K.F Werner mapped out the Vermandois family in 1960, and themajorityof historians have followed his version, including the ES, Ithink.Perhaps if the two theories, ie Gerberga dau of
Lambert, andGerbergadau of Leutaud/Leotold, are kept separate, it might be a bitclearer.The Lambert theory: (Bouchard, 'Sword & Mitre', Werner Die Weltals Geschicht, 1960)Robert m. Adelaide|Adela
m.1 Geoffrey m.2 Adelaide m1 Lambert           |   d.987 |            |  d.978/9|            |            |Fulk III    Maurice    _____|_________________  |            |          |Gerberga   
Matilda     Hugom1 Adalbert  m Geoffrey  |2 Henry        of Semur|Alberic II 1m. Ermentrude m2 Otto-WilliamThe Letaud/Leotold theory:_________________________________|     |Letaud/Leotold m.
Ermengarde   Giselbert d.956|    m. Ermengarde|    ||  Robert 1m. Adelaide m.2 Lambert|        |  _______________|_____________            |__________|              |               |         ||    
  Gerberga m.2 Henry m.2 Matilda     ||      m.1 Adalbert    m.2 Geoffrey ||    |      of Semur   ||    |          |Alberic II m 1. Ermentrude m. 2 Otto-William         ||     ____________________||
   |Guy of Macon m. AelisI havn't included the idea of 2 Adelaide's daughters ofGiselbert,or Hugo of Chalons, Geoffrey of Anjou, cos of space: but itdoesn't make much difference. Matt
DATE 27 OCT 1997