General Notes

[jweber.ged]

The ancestry of Renaud is questionable.  I give below (1) AR, which suggests Herbert II de Vermandois.  (2) Peter Stewart, who rejects AR, and finds a claim of "Ragenold the Dane" as father.  (3) Christian Settipani (who I am following) who rejects the Dane in favor of an Anjou connection.

Alberade of Lorraine, m. Renaud, d. 15 Mar 973, Count of Rheims and Roucy.  (He is called the 8th son of Herbert II, Count of Vermandois, but is not so given by Pere Anselme; though Anselme does give Hugh, Archbishop of Rheims, as a son of Herbert II).  [Ancestral Roots line 151-19]

Note: Alan Wilson names Renaud's father as Rognvald (a Dane) of Burgundy.  Leo van de Pas agrees with Alan, giving Ragenold "the Viking" a birth year of c900, which would not agree with Settipani's identification of him nor his ancestry, so I am omitting it.

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The following post to SGM, 30 Nov 2000, by Peter Stewart, refutes Herbert de Vermandois as father of Renaud, and, later, suggests a Danish marauder as father:

From: Stewart, Peter (Peter.Stewart@crsrehab.gov.au)
Subject: RE: Renaud de Roucy
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 2000-11-30 19:44:31 PST

> -----Original Message-----
> From: GRHaleJr@cs.com [mailto:GRHaleJr@cs.com]
> Sent: Friday, 1 December 2000 9:04
> To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Renaud de Roucy
>
>
>     In researching Renaud de Roucy b. abt 0931, Roucy(or
> Reims), France; d. 15 March 0973 I have encountered two
> different parentages as follows:
>
>     Ragnvald "the Viking" of Denmark b. abt 0885; d. abt 0925
> (I know it appears that the son was born 6 years after the death
> of the father; but this is from the same source.)
>
>     Herbert II de Vermandois b. abt 0884, Vermandois; d. 23
> February 0943.
>
>     There is also a Hubert of Burgundy which is I would bet
> is Herbert II, although his father is Hubert/Herbert also.
>
>     Does anyone have the correct data on this person.
>
>     Of course I hope the correct parentage is Herbert II
> since his lineage carries me back to Charlemagne.
>

This one is not going to fall your preferred way: for the children of Heribert II (Renaud not among them) see Christian Settipani, *La préhistoire des Capétiens 481 - 987* (Villeneuve d'Ascq, 1993), pp 223-230 and Michel Bur, *La formation du comté de Champagne v. 950 - v. 1150*, Mémoires des Annales de l'Est 54 (Nancy, 1977), appendix I, pp 507-513. For the origins of Renaud, count of Roucy see the latter, pp 134-139 & table 13, and the sources cited.

According to ES III, 675A (which does not identify his father, & cites Bur along with sources he also used) your Renaud occurs as early as 923, built the château at Roucy in 948, and died on 10 May 967 - where did you find the date 15 March 973? Bur suggests he was son of another Renaud, and either a half-brother of count Waldricus (Gaudry), whose son Guy was count of Soissons from 974 to 995, or related to the counts of Anjou.

Perhaps Todd Farmerie will comment on whether there is any evidence that the elder Renaud came from Denmark.

Peter Stewart

- - - later post on the next day (1 Dec 2000) - - -

The claim that the elder Renaud was a Dane depends on identifying him with the Viking raider Ragenold, who according to the annalist Flodoard was invading France at about the same time as Rollo of Normandy.  I'm not sure what the most recent opinions are regarding this possible identification.

Stewart Baldwin

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The following post to SGM, 2 Dec 2000, by Christian Settipani (a noted French genealogist) suggests an earlier Renaud, with an Anjou connection, as father of Renaud:

From: Settipani (inapit@club-internet.fr)
Subject: Re : Renaud de Roucy
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 2000-12-02 06:58:28 PST

I have examined lenghtly the family of this person in my paper : 'Les comtes d'Anjou et leurs alliances', in Family Trees and the Roots of Politics, ed. K.S.B. Keats-Rohan, Woodbridge, 1997, p. 211-267, at p. 222-225. I think that the equivalence Renaud of Roucy / Ragenold the Vikink is a false one and that there is no link between the two. Renaud de Roucy is probably the son of another Renaud, named from 924 to 941 in Anjou, and perhaps count of Soissons. This first Renaud could be a nephew of Fulk I of Anjou (+ 942).

CS

The ancestry of Renaud is questionable.  I give below (1) AR, whichsuggests Herbert II de Vermandois.  (2) Peter Stewart, who rejects AR,and finds a claim of "Ragenold the Dane" as father.  (3) ChristianSettipani (who I am following) who rejects the Dane in favor of an Anjouconnection.

Alberade of Lorraine, m. Renaud, d. 15 Mar 973, Count of Rheims andRoucy.  (He is called the 8th son of Herbert II, Count of Vermandois, butis not so given by Pere Anselme; though Anselme does give Hugh,Archbishop of Rheims, as a son of Herbert II).  [Ancestral Roots line151-19]

Note: Alan Wilson names Renaud's father as Rognvald (a Dane) ofBurgundy.  Leo van de Pas agrees with Alan, giving Ragenold "the Viking"a birth year of c900, which would not agree with Settipani'sidentification of him nor his ancestry, so I am omitting it.
----------------------
The following post to SGM, 30 Nov 2000, by Peter Stewart, refutes Herbertde Vermandois as father of Renaud, and, later, suggests a Danish marauderas father:

-----Original Message-----
From: GRHaleJr@cs.com [mailto:GRHaleJr@cs.com]
Sent: Friday, 1 December 2000 9:04
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Renaud de Roucy

     In researching Renaud de Roucy b. abt 0931, Roucy (or Reims),France; d. 15 March 0973 I have encountered two different parentages asfollows:
          Ragnvald "the Viking" of Denmark b. abt 0885; d. abt 0925  (Iknow it appears that the son was born 6 years after the death
of the father; but this is from the same source.)
          Herbert II de Vermandois b. abt 0884, Vermandois; d. 23 >February 0943.
There is also a Hubert of Burgundy which is I would bet is Herbert II,although his father is Hubert/Herbert also.

This one is not going to fall your preferred way: for the children ofHeribert II (Renaud not among them) see Christian Settipani, *Lapréhistoire des Capétiens 481 - 987* (Villeneuve d'Ascq, 1993), pp223-230 and Michel Bur, *La formation du comté de Champagne v. 950 - v.1150*, Mémoires des Annales de l'Est 54 (Nancy, 1977), appendix I, pp507-513. For the origins of Renaud, count of Roucy see the latter, pp134-139 & table 13, and the sources cited.

According to ES III, 675A (which does not identify his father, & citesBur along with sources he also used) your Renaud occurs as early as 923,built the château at Roucy in 948, and died on 10 May 967 - where did youfind the date 15 March 973? Bur suggests he was son of another Renaud,and either a half-brother of count Waldricus (Gaudry), whose son Guy wascount of Soissons from 974 to 995, or related to the counts of Anjou.

The claim that the elder Renaud was a Dane depends on identifying himwith the Viking raider Ragenold, who according to the annalist Flodoardwas invading France at about the same time as Rollo of Normandy.  I'm notsure what the most recent opinions are regarding this possibleidentification.
-----------------
The following post to SGM, 2 Dec 2000, by Christian Settipani (a notedFrench genealogist) suggests an earlier Renaud, with an Anjou connection,as father of Renaud:

I have examined lenghtly the family of this person in my paper : 'Lescomtes d'Anjou et leurs alliances', in Family Trees and the Roots ofPolitics, ed. K.S.B. Keats-Rohan, Woodbridge, 1997, p. 211-267, at p.222-225. I think that the equivalence Renaud of Roucy / Ragenold theVikink is a false one and that there is no link between the two. Renaudde Roucy is probably the son of another Renaud, named from 924 to 941 inAnjou, and perhaps count of Soissons. This first Renaud could be a nephewof Fulk I of Anjou (+ 942).

Maloney, Hendrick & Others - J. H. Maloney