General Notes

Burke's Peerage seems to indicate that Ralph was son of Aubrey by his 3rd wife Agnes of Essex, although it gives very little information on Ralph other than his name and does identifiy him as older than Robert, who became the 3rd Earl of Oxford, but then Burke's indicates that Ralph died before his father and therefore would not have received the title (but his sons might have).  An earlier birth by the 1st wife would make more sense according to events which occured in Scotland (ie. Ralph witnessed a charter in 1174.  He could not have been old enough if he was son of a 1162/63 marriage).  Ralph could easily have been the eldest son, bastardized by his parents divorce in 1146, and therefore seeking his fortune along with David I in Scotland.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
copied from Clan Weir website, www.electricscotland.com/webclans/stoz/weir2.html:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The name Weir, like many lowland Scottish names, is of Norman origin from one or several of the places named Vere around the Calvados region of France. The word was introduced into Normandy by the Norsemen from their own word "ver" meaning a station. It appears that Ralph or Radulphus de Ver is the first of the name recorded in Scotland. He was taken prisoner along with Richard the Lion in 1174; he later witnessed a charter by King William I sometime between 1174 and 1184. During the same period he gifted a bovate of land in Sprouston, Roxburgh to the Abbey of Kelso; his brother, Robert de Ver, was a witness to this charter. The Weirs of Blackwood, Lanarkshire, claim their descent from this Ralph de Ver, although this cannot be proven as their name does not appear on record until 1400 when they acquired their lands.

Thanks to James Pringle Weavers for the following information

WEIR: This name, now fairly common throughout Lowland Scotland, is usually derived from 'Vere', a name said to be of Norse origin, and to have come from France about the time of the Norman invasion of England in 1066. Many Normans who came with the Conqueror later re-settled in Scotland from the reign of David I (1124-53), and what is believed to be the first instance of the name here identifies a Ralph de Vere, captured at Alnwick with William the Lion in 1174. Ralph has been promoted as the ancestor of the Weirs (Veres) of Blackwood in Lanarkshire, even though this family do not appear on record until 1400, when they first obtained possession of these lands

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ray Isabell sent the e-mail concerning the above quote from James Pringle Weavers:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The quote from James Pringle Weaver is nearly verbatim from one of those old books influenced by detractors of the Weir-de Veres.  The charter of Blackwood is dated 1400, but that was only a confirmation of the lease from the abbey.  The Veres were vassals of Kelso Abbey (to which Blackwood belonged) more than 100 years earlier, since Walter de Vere. There is no record of anyone else owning Blackwood besides Kelso Abbey and the Veres/Weirs since the 1100s.

The Weir of Blackwood coat of arms (stars on a blue fess on a silver shield) is identical to that of the earls of Oxford but with three silver stars (Weir) instead of one (Vere).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following is copied from a Scottish website, Lesmahagow On Line:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Weirs of Blackwood

Of the many families which have held land in the Parish, the Weirs are the oldest, being in continuous occupation from the earliest written records of the twelfth and thirteenth centuries. The first of them was Baltredus (or Radulphus) de Vere, who was witness to a charter made by King William the Lion in 1160, and his son Walter made a donation to the Abbey of Kelso which was regularly confirmed by his descendants. The name is spelt variously as de Vere, de Wer, Wer, Were and Weir throughout history. The first time the name is directly connected with Lesmahagow is in the 'Liber de Calchou' or 'Book of Kelso' in 1276, when Thomas Wer was witness to a land transaction. In 1311, a 'Thoma Were' and others witnessed a resignation of lands to the Abbot of Kelso and from 1398 to 1400, Rotaldus Wer 'well-beloved and faithful' was bailie of Lesmahagow. In 1400 the church granted him 'and his heirs-male ' the lands 'of Blackwodd and Dermoundyston with the whole of Mossmynyne (Hawksland)'. In 1556, a John Weir was the Chamberlain, rendering accounts, for the revenues of the Priory of Lesmahagow but, one hundred years previously, a David Wer had stood accused of the robbery of a sum of gold, silver and jewellery from the Priory with the sentence being excommunication and, further, a Thomas Weir of Blackwood was accused of the murder of Archibald Tennant in 1537 in a dwelling at St. Bride in Kype. That the Weirs had their good and bad points obviously does not need to be further commented upon. There is scarcely a place of any note in the Parish which has not been at one time the residence of someone with the surname of Weir - Poniel, Brownhill, Kerse, Auchenfardel or Auchtyfardle, Blackwood and Stonebyres being perhaps the most well known.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://genforum.genealogy.com/vere/messages/218.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by: Jacqui de Vere Date: February 27, 2001 at 05:42:20 218  of 332

Has anyone heard of the connection of Baltredus and the Earls of Oxford? The story goes:

Aubrey 1st Earl of Oxford had another son Ralf/Radulphus who, having opposed his father in warring times, placing allegiance with Scotland, was disinherited. Ralf/Radulphus fled to Scotland, declaring his allegiance to the Scottish Crown and was subsequently rewarded with lands there. On the death of his father, the title of now 2nd Earl of Oxford passed to his brother Aubrey whose title, having died childless, passed to another brother Robert, now 3rd Earl of Oxford.

As Ralf/Radulphus was the second son, the title of 3rd Earl of Oxford should have passed to him. However, overlooked, the title passed to Robert the 3rd son.

Ralf/Radulphus, now living in Scotland had issue - Baltredus. Baltredus now being the Grandson of the 1st Earl of Oxford.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Baltredus de Vere, Scotland, A.D. 1163
Posted by: Nicholas de Vere Date: May 19, 2001 at 16:18:28
In Reply to: Baltredus de Vere, Scotland, A.D. 1163 by Ray Isbell  of 337


According to one authority on the Flemish Nobility of Scotland, Baltredus never existed. Might I suggest that if anyone has access to early documents, they might like to compare the style of the letter R in relation to the letter B. They will find that they are, in many cases, identical. We are looking for Ralfredus or Ralph, the second son of Aubrey who defected to the Flemish side in the dispute over succession in England. The Norman lot won the day and Ralph disappeared from the English scene with his liege lord Conan of Brittany and turned up in Scottish records in 1165 where on occassion he can be seen to have witnessed documents with his brother Robert; who later succeeded to the earldom of Oxford over Ralph's head. For Ralph's seniority see the Charters of Colne Priory, where his name precedes that of Robert.

------------------------------------------

Note: Burke's Peerage states that Radulphus/Ralph preceded his father in death and therefore would not have received the title.  His son Baltredus could have been overlooked because he was in Scotland.  I also think Radulphus was son of a divorced mother, and was therefore disinherited by his father.  The fact that he supported the Flemish side supports further the idea that Ralph was descended from Beatrice de Gand, whom his father divorced in 1146.