1535944

[charlemegne.FTW]

Parents not known.

The affiliation for Maud de Clare/Clere has had an extensive dis cussion on soc.medieval.genealogy. ES III/4:709 in the Lacy gene alogy gives the marriage but does not give any affiliation for M aud. ES III/1:156 (Clare genealogy) does give Richard de Clare a nd Amice a daughter, Matilda, who married (1) William de Braos e (d.1210) and (2) in 1210 Rhys Gryg (d.1233), but no daughter o f that name marrying Roger de Lacy.

Maud de Clere was the wife of Roger de Lacy and they were the pa rents of John earl of Lincoln. Maud was [or was not, see below ] the sister of the treasurer of the cathedral at York. Just wh o this brother might be was canvassed very thoroughly on the lis t. A search of the archives under 'John de Lacy' might prove use ful.

Here is a copy of the evidence and a comment on it by J C B Shar p to the list (13 Jan 1998).

Sed et iste Rogerus constabularius duxit in uxorem Matildem de C lere, sororem thesaurarii Eboracensis Ecclesie, de qua genuit Jo hannem constabularium (Thoresby Society VIII, p 241).

"The statement comes from a narrative account of the Constable s of Chester copied into the Coucher Book of Kirkstall. There i s another version printed in the Monasticon under Norton. From t he contents the original cannot have been written before the 14t h century.

"Also in the Monasticon under Kirkstall there is a different doc ument which makes an almost identical statement. The date of thi s is also 14c. I suppose that all have a common source now lost.

"The next step is to ask who the brother was. The lists of treas urers given by Drake and Le Neve do not reveal anyone who is exp licitly de Clare at a feasible date. There is Eustace 1196-8 an d Hamo 1204-16 and perhaps he was one of these two.

"A footnote in the published Coucher Book reads: But see Ormerod 's Cheshire, i, 511. When I looked some years ago I could not sp ot anything relevant."

VCH Lancs. says, "The statement which originated in the Histori a Lacelorum (Mon. Angl. vi. 315), that Roger de Lacy's wife wa s Maud, sister of [Bevis] de Clare, treasurer of York, is, of co urse, a grotesque error, seeing that Bevis de Clare, alias de Fa irfax, was treasurer of York from 1285 to about 1292."[MARSHALL.FTW]

SOURCE NOTES:
Holloway, Naomi D, The Genealogy of Mary Wentworth, Who Became the Wife of
William Brewster, Revised Edition, October 1969. LDS Film#1738313 item#5

Redlich, Marcellus Donald R Von, Pedigrees of Some of the Emperor
Charlemagne's Descdenants. Order of the Crown of Charlemagne, 1941.

Reed, Paul C, Maud [de Clere?], Wife of Roger de Lacy, posting to Gen-MEDIEVAL
Feb 9, 1999. Author address reedpcgen@@aol.com.

Watney, Vernon James, The Wallop Family and their Ancestry, Oxford:John
Johnson, 1928. LDS Film#1696491 items 6-9.

Weis, Frederick L, Magna Charta Sureties 1215: The Barons Named in the Magna
Charta and Some of Their Descendants. 4th Ed. Baltimore: Gen Pub Co, 1991.

Weis, Frederick Lewis, Ancestral Roots of Sixty Colonists, 6th Edition,
Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co, 1988.

Wurts, John S., Magna Charta: The Pedigrees of the Barons, Philadelphia, PA:
Brookfield Publishing Co, 1942.
RESEARCH NOTES:
sister of the treasurer of York Cathedral [Ref: Watney #588]

_The Coucher Book of the Cistercian Abbey of Kirkstall_, ed by W. T. Lancaster
and W. P. Baildon [Thoresby Society 8 (1904)], states that Roger de Lacy
married Matilda/Maud de Clere, sister of the treasurer of the Church of York.
W. Pailey Baildon was one of the best scolars of English Medieval documents at
that time, so I doube they misread the original.
[Many other] accounts (foundation charters, genealogies of the founders,
etc.) were written much later than the event; it is possible that the scribes,
though possibly copying from an earlier text, erred and confused Roger's wife
with his granddaughter Maud/Matilda, who married Richard de Clare, Earl of
Gloucester and Hertford.
A. B. Enden, _A Biographical Register of the Uniersity of Oxford to A.
D. 1500_ 1:423-4 gives a long and detailed biography of Bogo/Bevis de
Clare, who at one time was treasurer of the Church of York. But this
source states that he was a "younger son of Rihard (de Clare), earl of
Gloucester and Hertford. Studying at Oxford with his brother, Thomas, in
1257 ... presented by his father [to Rotherfield] May 1258." If this is
true, Bogo would be sone of Maud de Lacy, not her brother. But as
Gilbert de Clare, Maud de Lacy's eldest son, was born 2 September 1243,
this would have Bogo being presented to Rotherfield at a very young age
in 1258 if younger brother of Gilbert. But even placing Bogo back a
generation, we would have that he was brother-in-law of Maud (de Lacy) de
Clare not her brother. Bogo/Bevis died at London 26 Oct 1294.
William Farrer's _Honours and Knights' Fees_ ... 2:202 reads "Upon Roger [de
Lascy]'s death in 1211 his relict Matilda de Clare held West Halton in dower
[citing to Bk of Feed, 285]. It would be Farrer who also introduced the "de
Clare" into the Lacy pedigree in EYC. But, _The Book of Fees_ 285 does not
designate her as "de Clare".
Even if the accounts which call Mathilda "de Clere" and "sister of the
treasurer" do not date before the fourteenth century, Maud (de Lacy) de Clare,
wife of Earl Richard, was still living in 1288, Bogo de Clare until 1294. And
Bogo de Clare held an extraordinary number of beneficies and positions, as
well as being Papal chaplain by 1282 and King's clerk by 1285. If it were a
slip of this Bogo de Clare, why call him treasurer?
From Dugdale's Mon. Angl. 6:315: Iste Rogerus moriebatur in festo
sancti Remigii, anno gratiae MCCXI. et cum domina Matilda unore sua
septultus est in choro monachorum de locl benedicto de Stanlowe. So it
appears Maud/Matilda was buried at Stanlow, Cheshire, which had been funded by
the family of William fitzNigel. And from 5:534 Historia Laceiorum, from the
account of the Abbey of Kirkstall, Iste Rogerus de Lacy duxit in uxorem
Matildam de Clare sororem thesaurarii Eborum ecclesiae, de qua geuit Johanem,
secundum constabularium, et comitem Lincolniae. Now this comes from an
edition, though much expanded beyong the original, that sill contains numerous
mistakes in transcription. I would certainly trust Pailey Baildon over the
edotors of Mon. Angl. any day. But note: this would be the origin of John de
Lacy's wife being called Maud "de Clare". It's appearance in CP, William
Farrer's Honors and Knights' Feed, and EYC would all trace to this obviously
well known public source.
Taken with the problems of consanguinity, when her granddaughter
married the Earl of Gloucester, I still believe that the rendering of "de
Clere" is preferable, and that at least in any case we should believe
that Maud was at least sister of the treasurer of the church of York,
who would at that time also have been the Archdeacon of the East Riding.
The various treasurers of York, taken from a detailed article by
Charles Travis Clay in the Yorkshire Archaelogical Hournal (v35, 1943,
p7-35) This is the list we would have to choose from if Maud were
actually sister of one of the trasurers of York. As Maud's son John was born
ca 1192, we would expect Maud to have been at least 15, more likely older,
therefore born before about 1177 or earlier.
William FitzHerbert, later Archbishop York (St. Wm of York), 1127-1143
Hugh de Puiset, son of Hugh de Puiset Vicount of Chartres, 1143-1154
John of Canterbury, later Bishop of Poitiers, 1154-1162
Ralph de Warneville, later Bishop of Lisieux, 1167-1181
Geoffrey son of the King, 1182-89 (but then Maud would certainly been called
daughter of the king, or at least of royal blood)
Bouchard du Puiset, nephew of Hugh, BIshop of Durham, 1189-1196
Master Eustace, surname unknown, later Bishop of Ely, 1196-1198
Hamo, precentor of York, later Dean of York, 1199-1216
William 'the treasurer' surname unknown, 1218-1221, possibly Maud's brother
William de Rotherfield, 1222
William 'the treasurer' without surname de Rotherfield, named in 1221, 22,
25, 26, 27, 30, and 37. Same or different? unknown
Mag. Robert Haget 1241-1253
Mag. John le Romeyn, 1253-1255 [Ref: Paul Reed 2/9/99]
RESEARCH NOTES:
note: Richrad deCLARE & Amice Meulant [Ref: Wurts p426]
SOURCE NOTES:
date: [Ref: Watney #588]

Records not imported into INDI (individual) Gramps ID I7203:

Line ignored as not understood Line 152672: 2 SOUR @S159427@
Skipped subordinate line Line 152673: 3 DATA
Skipped subordinate line Line 152674: 4 TEXT Date of Import: Sep 24, 2000