Ermengarde de Tonnerre

• General Notes
  • Copied below is a two-part post to SGM, 5 Dec 1998, by the noted French genealogist Settipani:
    
    From: SETTIPANI (inapit@club-internet.fr)
    Subject: De NEVERS
    Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
    Date: 1998/12/05
    
    The Ascendancy of Ermengarde of Tonnerre : Part I
    
    
    
        The question about Nevers has raised up three answers, all of three erroneous. As many - if not the most - answers about Early Middle Ages. I will speak thereafter of Constantia of Provence (not Toulouse !). Briefly, the problem is that nowhere a medieval source or a modern scientific work is invoqued (and I don’t take in consideration the triumphant ‘et voilà !’ of my french countryman or his pleasant ‘many nights on internet’ or the Stuart, Weiss and so). So, the same mistakes are conscenciously repeated. Most of dates are at best conjectural, names are confusing, and genealogies dubious or false. The genealogy of the counts of Tonnerre was much debatted, notably by E. Petit, M. Chaume, J. Laurent, C. Bouchard, J.-N. Mathieu. I give the simplest -and the best- presentation :
    
    
    1 Ermengardis (Ermengarde), m. Wilhelm (Guillaume, William) of Nevers.
    2 Renhard II (Renard), count of Tonnerre ...1002-1039... (b. c. 993, d. c. 1040).
    3 Helvisa (Heilwig, Helvise, Heloise), fl. 1018.
    4 Milo (Milon) IV, count of Tonnerre ...993..., d. bef. 1002.
    5 Ermengardis (Ermengarde), widow of Herbert IV of Vermandois, d. aft. 1018.
    8 Milo III, count of Tonnerre ...975-980..., d. c. 987.
    9 Engeltrudis (Engeltrude), fl. 980.
    16 Wido I (Guy), count of Tonnerre, d.bef. 975 (958 ?).
    17 Adela (Adele), widow 975.
    32 ? Renhard I, count of Tonnerre ...890-896...
    64 Milo II, count of Langres & Tonnerre ...887...
    65 Adela, widow 902.
    
    Sources : many nights on Cartularies and ...
    
    
    
        no 1 (Gesta Pontif., p. 398-402) ; no 2 (cart. Yonne, no 94 ; E. Petit, Hist. ducs Bourg., II, p. 428-9) ; no 3 (E. Petit, II, p. 428-9) ; no 4 (cart. Yonne, no 80, 81, 94) ; no 5 (cart. Yonne, no 81) ; no 8 (cart. Yonne, no 76, cart. St-Benoit, no 61) ; no 9 (cart. Yonne, no 76) ; no 16 (cart. Yonne, no 94, cart. Cluny, II, no 1044 ?) ; no 17 (cart. St-Benoit, no 61, cart. Cluny, no 625 ?) ; no 32 (Cart. Montieramey, n° 12) ; no 64 (cart. Yonne, no 94, dipl. Charles III, 887, cart. St-Benigne, no 154) ; no 65 (cart. St-Benigne, no 154).
    
    
    Cartulaire general de l’Yonne, ed. M. Quantin, vol. I, Auxerre, 1854.
    Chartes et documents de Saint-Benigne de Dijon, t. II (1943), éd. G.
    Chevrier & M. Chaume, t. I (1986), éd. R. Folz & J. Marilier.
    Arthur Giry, Documents carolingiens de l’abbaye de Montieramey, Etudes d’histoire du moyen age dediees a G. Monod, Paris, 1896, p. 107-136.
    Gesta Pontificum Autissiodorensium, ed. M. Duru, Auxerre, 1850.
    Recueil des actes de Charles III le Simple, roi de France (893-923), 2 vol., ed. P. Lauer, Paris 1940-9.
    Recueil des chartes de l’abbaye de de Cluny (802-1300), Paris, 6 vol., 1876-1903, éd. A. Bernard et A. Bruel.
    Recueil des chartes de l'abbaye de Saint-Benoit-sur-Loire, ed. M. Prou et A. Vidier, vol. I, Paris, 1900.
    
    The Ascendancy of Ermengarde of Tonnerre : Part II
    
    
    
        The ancestry of Helvisa (no 3) is unknown, but I suppose her a niece of Hardoin, bishop of Noyon (1015-1027) (M. Chaume believed she was a sister of his). Hardoin is brother of Garnier and son of Robert of Croyes. Probably they are issued of Waltharius (Gauthier, Walter), count of Valois, Amiens and Vexin (d. c. 992/8), grandson of the caroligian Helvisa.
    
    
    
    
        The family of Ermengardis (no 5), widow of Herbert, not the reverse, is not « Bar-sur-Seine » (one misunderstanding hypothesis of E. Petit: such a dynasty does not exist at this time). She was, I think, the daughter of Alberic II of Macon and his second wife. Engeltrudis (no 9) is certainly, as showed by E. Petit, of Brienne family. She was more probably the sister (not daughter) of Engelbert I and Gau(s)bert. May be they are the nephews of Engeltrudis, viscountess of Chalon and the posterity of Gausbert of Nevers, grandson of an Engeltrudis.
    
    
    
    
        The family of Adela (no 17) is not identified. Her name and her granddaughter’s, Liedgardis, point to Vermandois. But the name Liedgardis come perhaps via Engeltrudis : Engeltrudis of Chalon was probably mother of Liedgardis of Dijon. So, the best solution was that of M. Chaume, the countess Adela is the same that Adela, sister Leotald of Macon, who make an important donation in 958 for the soul of a Wido, may be the count of Tonnerre.
    
    
    
    
        Renard (no 32) is not attested as member of the family. He is named as a count in a trial about Tonnerrois and fit at the good place for the missing generation in the family (to justify Renard II’s name, wich was no more inherited from a pseudo ‘Bar-sur-Seine’ dynasty, and because Milo II’s daughter was a Ren-trude).
    
    
    Last, Adela (no 65) : if her son was really a Renhard, she was undoubtly the sister of Renhard and Manasses I of Auxerre. The family’s origin is Lotharingian.
    
    Bibliography :
    C. Bouchard, Sword, Miter, and Cloister. Nobility and the church in Burgundy, 980-1198, Londres 1987.
    M. Chaume, Les origines du duche de Bourgogne, vol. I, Dijon, 1925.
    M. Chaume, Recherches d’Histoire Chretienne et medievale, 1947, p.260-277.
    J. Laurent, L’origine du comté de bar-sur-Seine, Annales de Bourgogne, (1951), p. 172-180.
    J.-N. Mathieu, Recherches sur les premiers comtes de Tonnerre et de Bar-sur-Seine, Bulletin de la société d’archéologie et d’histoire du Tonnerois , 47 (1994), p. 21-29.
    E. Petit, Histoire des ducs de Bourgogne de la race capétienne, 6 vol., Paris, 1885-1898.
    C. Settipani, Les origines maternelles du comte de Bourgogne Otte-Guillaume, Annales de Bourgogne, 66 (1994), p. 5-63.
    C. Settipani, Les comtes d’Anjou et leurs alliances aux Xe et XIe
    siècles, dans K.S.B. Keats-Rohan (ed.), Family trees and the Roots of Politics, Woodbridge, 1997, p. 211-267.
    C. Settipani, Les Widonides : le destin d’une famille aristocratique franque du VIe au Xe siècle, memoire de D.E.A., Paris Sorbonne, 1998.
    
    Title: Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, 7th Edition, by Frederick Lewis Weis, additions by Walter Lee Shippard Jr., 1999
    Page: 107-21
    
    Title: Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval, at groups - google.com
    Page: Settipani, 5 Dec 1998
    
    Title: Leo's Genealogics Website (Leo van de Pas), www.genealogics.org
    Page: Ermengarde, Comtesse de Tonnerre

Click here for details of Ermengarde's family with William de Nevers I

¹ http://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=PED&db=tamer&id=I13650&style=TABLE

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