General Notes

Using Turton as a source, I orginally had Roger's wife as Ida Plantagenet, daughter of Hamelin Plantagenet and Isabel de Warenne.   Mike Lysell, mlysell@@attbi.com, posted the following correction, which led me to research and change Ida's ancestry (see post by SGM below):

Jim - You show Rogerís wife as Ida Plantagenent, Daughter of Hamelin Plantagenet and Isabelle de Warenne. Records indicate that Isabelle and Hamlin did not marry until 1164. At the time of Ida or Isabellaís birth, Isabelle de Warenne was married to William de Blois. According to Fredrick Weis, William de Blois died without issue.

I found the following information on Paul McBride's web page at homepages.rootsweb.com~pmcbride:  ìIsabella (Ida) (1152-) 

ìNOT the daughter of Hameline Plantagenet and Isabel de Warren. Turton says she is the daughter of Hameline Plantagenet and Isabel de Warren, but many others dispute that.
b. ABT 1152 r. Sussex, Eng.

ìMarried first Henry_II Curtmantle King of England (1132-1189)

ìMarried second Roger BIGOD 2nd Earl of Norfolk (1150-1221)î

Paul also shows this Ida or Isabella as the mother of William Longespee. Paul lists a number of sources on his site.

According to a note on James Dowís web site, a researcher named Ray Phail recently confirmed that Roger Bigodís wife Ida and Henry IIís misteress Ida were the same person. I didn't see a date or any sources here.

I've no idea of the accuracy of the above but it does help explain the confusion over Hamilin and Isabelle's date of marriage and Ida Plantagenet's birth date.

Mike Lysell

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The following post by Paul Reed to SGM, 20 Sep 2000, analyzes the possible parents of Ida, but I tend to agree with Douglas Richardson (as suggested below) that Ida was daughter of Roger de Toeny and Margaret Beaumont, partially because the estimate of William's birth date is open to question: Royal sons, even bastard ones, tended to do things at a younger age (earlier than 21) than non-Royals, therefore I am keeping William's birth as "bef 1173".  Even though many other sources have William Longespee's mother as Rosemond de Clifford (among others), Ida was established as William Longespee's mother and mistress of Henry II in a reference by William himself to his mother "Countess Ida".  Ida de Toeni seems the most likely based on the few countesses of the appropriate age named Ida.

From: Reedpcgen (reedpcgen@@aol.com)
Subject: Re: Countess Ida identification [more analysis--long]
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 2000/09/20

We can further narrow down the possible English parentage for Countess Ida with a little more certainty.  To recap some past conclusions for newer members (and for those of us whose memories are not what they once were): 

We had determined that DNB and the other standard sources that attributed a grant of the manor of Appelby, co. Lincoln, in 1188 to William Longespee (the illegitimate son of Henry) were in error.  I had discussed evidence that showed it was held by other families at that period [see a post I made 7 March 1998], and John Sharp reminded us  [posted to this group that same date] of an assize record that proved the William Longespee involved was actually the king's legitimate brother (also named William Longespee), not the illegitimate son. 

We then determined--throwing out the erroneous attribution--that the earliest date we could attribute to William was 1191, which we concluded gave him an estimated birth date of 1170; but he could easily have been BORN EARLIER than 1170.  This would give a date of conception in 1169, if not before.

[William Longespee was highly favored by his brother Richard I, being given important lands in 1191, and the entire Earldom of Salisbury with the five year old heiress in 1196.  I take this to indicate that Richard and William were very familiar and had spent much time together before William attained majority -- possibly as a member of the royal household.  Henry had plenty of other illegitimate offspring who were not awarded these honors and trust.] 

How old was Ida when William Longespee was born?  If we determine that fifteen was on the younger side for a mistress of Henry, but that she might possibly have been as old as twenty-five, we have a possible range for her birth between 1144 and 1154. 

But remember, again, that William Longespee may well have been born before 1170; we might consider 1154 to be the latest year Ida might be expected to be born.  The odds would be more favorable for an earlier year. 

Let's compare this with what we know about the Toeni family.  CP had determined that Roger [III] de Toeni was born possibly about 1104, given that his parents were married in 1103. 

It would be ideal for a feudal lord to have a legitimate male heir right off the bat, but that did not always happen.  The older sons might have been born first and died in their youth.  Daughters might be born first.  It would easily be possible that the husband of Ida of Hainault was born some years after 1110.

I had concluded that the heir of  Ralph [V] de Toeni (Ida's son)--which heir was described as but a little boy at his father's death in 1162--was therefore likely born about 1155-1160.  Adrian reminded me that CP 7:530, note "e" [under Leicester] states that Margaret de Beaumont did not married Ida of Hainault's son Ralph [V] de Toeni UNTIL AFTER 1155. 

Given that Countess Ida was probably born BEFORE 1154, much more likely closer to 1144, she would not be daughter of Margaret de Beaumont.  Remember that Ida of Hainault's second son, Roger [IIIa] de Toeni, married Ada/Aude de Chaumont, who was not born UNTIL about 1155.  Another of Ida of Hainault's four sons went to be trained and fight with his uncle, Count Baldwin, and the last was a cleric. 

Given this chronology, it may be that Ida of Hainault's sons were born about 1130-40 (remember, this is a very rough estimation).  It would not be unreasonable for Ida of Hainault to have had a daughter also named Ida born about 1145-50. 

If, on the other hand, Roger [III] de Toeni was actually born about 1104, and his wife Ida of Hainault a similar year (say 1105), Ida of Hainault might have had daughters born about 1125-30 who could themselves have had a daughter named Ida born about 1144-54. 

Though any daughter of Ida of Hainault was a Toeni, their husband would have had a different surname.  Remember that we are dealing with a very early period with relatively few surviving records to aid us.  If Countess Ida was not a daughter of Ida of Hainault herself, but a granddaughter, odds are that she was NOT a daughter of one of Ida of Hainault's sons (and not a daughter of the eldest son by Margaret de Beaumont, who was married after 1155), but a daughter of one of Ida of Hainault's daughters. 

Paul C. Reed, FASG
(copyright) 

PS  I have been told that Doug's current stance is that Countess Ida was daughter of Margaret de Beaumont by Ralph de "Tony" [sic].  If he again adjusts his view, it is my opinion that he should credit the discussions here on this group.  I tried having words with Doug at the FHL (terse words), but he did not seem to indicate any willingness or need to give credit to anyone other than himself in this instance. 

I was also told that the current draft states that Countess Ida "evidently" became the mother of William Longespee about 1167-1169, though no explanation is made for this statement, and none of the sources he cites provides those dates.  Unless he shows otherwise, it would appear to be taken directly from our discussions.