General Notes

Isabel (married 2nd c1166 Geoffrey de Vere, married 3rd c1188 William Boterel, died c1199), daughter and heir of Ingram de Say, feudal Lord of Clun, Salop.  [Burke's Peerage]

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Curt Hofemann, curt_hofemann@@yahoo.com, in a post-em, wrote:

It appears the name of her father was Ellis/Elias/Helias de SAY/SAYE & not Ingram/Ingelram:

(Ellis de Say) whose da. and h., Isabel, brought it (the Lordship of Clun in Shropshire) to her husband, William FitzAlan [Ref: CP II:335 as corrected by CP XIV]

In CP V:391 it states "...Isabel, da. and h. of Ingram de Say..."
Isabel was the daughter of Elias, not Ingram, de Say... Isabel, daughter and heir of Elias de Say, lord of Clun [Isabel is described as the daughter of Elias in a 12th-century narrative from the cartulary of Lilleshall Abbey, printed by Dugdale, Monasticon, vol.6, p.262, cited by Eyton, vol.9, p.358]. [Ref: Some corrections and additions to the Complete Peerage, FitzAlan (of Oswestry), Volume 5, page 391: http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/vol3.shtml]

As I have noted, after 1160, Guy le Strange, Sheriff of Shropshire was appointed to administer the Fitz Alan estates and Eyton gives many examples of entries by him with regard to these estates.  In 1165, Geoffrey de Vere married Isabel de say and became lord of Clun in her right.  This is recorded in the Liber Niger and numerous financial entries.  Her third husband, William Boterell, would also become Baron of Clun in her right.  William II Fitz Alan (her son) is not recorded with regard to Clun until 1203, after her death.  She actually died in 1199 so presumably William FA (FITZALAN) was baron of Clun from 1199-1210.

Beginning in 1166, Geoffrey de Vere began receiving income from the Fitz Alan estates.  This continues until 1170 when Eyton notes "Geoffrey de Vere died; but credit is taken for his full annuity out of the Fitz Alan estates up to Michaelmas.  The word habuit is however used instead of the word habet in respect of the lands which had furnished the said annuity and which he had ceased to hold."

All this clearly shows that Isabel de Say, Lady of Clun married Geoffrey de Vere and that she is the same as the Isabel de Say who married William Fitz Alan (d. 1160). [Ref: Joe Cochoit <jcochoit@@aol.com> message to soc.genealogy.medieval 19 May 2002]

Isabel Say, daughter and heir of Helias de Say, Lady of Clun, niece of Robert Say, Earl of Gloucester. [Ref: The Ancestors of Homer Beers James:  http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~pmcbride/james/f019.htm#T55]

married 1st: William FITZALAN (no date given) [Ref: CP V:392, Holloway p10, Watney p391]
(Holloway = "The Genealogy of Mary Wentworth, Who Became the Wife of William Brewster" by Naomi D. Holloway 1969 LDS Film 1738313)

married 2nd: Geoffrey de VERE before 1166 [Ref: Some corrections and additions to the Complete Peerage, FitzAlan (of Oswestry), Volume 5, page 391: http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/vol3.shtml]

married 3rd: William BOTEREL before 1188 [Ref: Some corrections and additions to the Complete Peerage, FitzAlan (of Oswestry), Volume 5, page 391: http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/vol3.shtml]

she died probably in 1199 [Ref: Some corrections and additions to the Complete Peerage, FitzAlan (of Oswestry), Volume 5, page 391: http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/vol3.shtml]

Regards,
Curt